Origin(s) of gospel music, black Americian gospel and blues

What are the origins of (black) American gospel music? (As performed by people like Rev Gary Davis, The Staple Singers, Mahailia Jackson... etc)

And how is black, American gospel music tied into/related to the blues, and its history? Which came first? I'm interested in the relationship between the two.

Why is it that certain chords and chord progressions 'sound like gospel music'?

The simple answer is that black gospel music derived from a blending of African styles with protestant song forms, especially Wesleyan hymns.

As far as whether gospel or blues came first, both developed at the same time, in the same place, among the same people, borrowed elements back and forth, and to my mind (and ears) weren't really very much different until the 1930's when Georgia Tom split with Tampa Red and became Thomas A. Dorsey, the father of gospel music. Many of the great R&B singers of the 50's and 60's (Solomon Burke, Sam Cooke, Aretha Franklin, Johnnie Taylor) all learned their craft in the church.

Dorsey took elements of then-current popular music and added them to already established forms. His innovations laid the ground work for what became what we know as black gospel music.


(NOTE: Thomas A. Dorsey, who wrote 'Precious Lord' and many other great songs, is not the same person as big band leader Tommy Dorsey.)

"to my mind (and ears) (blues and gospel) weren't really very much different until the 1930's"

I disagree and, not to be a wise ass, but would cite the following as early, pre-1930s gospel that sounds nothing like the blues:

Standard Quartet . Keep Movin’ 1894
Poor Mourner Cousins and DeMoss 1897
Poor Mourner Dinwiddie Colored Quartet 11/29/02
Poor Mourner Fisk University Jubilee Quartet 2/10/11
Polk Miller and His Old South Quartet What A Time 12/09
My Soul is a Witness Florida Normal and Industrial Institute Quartet 9/22
The Gospel Train Am Comin’ Homer Rodheaver and the Wiseman Quartet 8/10/23
God’s Gonna Set This World on Fire Kentucky Trio 11/2/23
I'll Be Rested Roosevelt Graves and His Brother 12/26
Lord I Can’t Stay Away Violet Harmony Singers 3/29/27
I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say Biddleville Quintet 10/28

and that is really just a small and selective list - and I am fond of quoting Dick Spottswood who has noted the category of songs that are "gospel songs written for the minstrel stage," one of which is Poor Mourner (think, also, of Oh Dem Golden Slippers).

Ray Charles' music was really tied into gospel, also. (But you knew that, I guess! :D ;))

Most of the church hymns I've been around, aren't that musically-compelling. It's sedate. What was it like, before T. Dorsey?

Thanks for not simply referring me to an article, too.

Harmonica Mitch - you are missing the point, and you are probably going to have to read something first to get it into perspective - see the book, first of all, Slave Songs of the United States, which gives examples of early African American adaptations of hymns/spirituals - this will give you a good musical idea of what was happening much earlier than Parchman indicates (not to be mean, but his post is highly inaccurate and misleading) - than read Kip Lornell's book Happy in the Service of the Lord, particulary the intro, which is the best outline I have seen of the development of gospel. And don't just listen to Ray Charles to hear the gospel/pop/blues fusion - try Nappy Brown, Little Willie John, Rosetta Tharpe, Big Maybelle, just to start.

and than get hold of all the Document 1920s gospel CDs you can, which are indispensible in giving a musical picture of what was happening from, say, 1921 on, in the gospel field. Plenty of hymn singing. It's takes some time and commitment, but music is never that simple.

err, Allen, Harmonica Mitch started this post so his first posting is the whole point of this post. He has not missed anything.

Parchmans response is stated as the 'simple answer' which is perfectly fine in response to Mitchs questions. This is a discussion forum after all.

If you do feel so strongly about Parchmans simple answer then please try correcting some of Parchmans 'inaccurate' statements rather than telling us to go and read a book.

The questions examined here are rather complex.

We might begin with the definition of "gospel" itself. What are we talking about? The word "gospel" is often used to refer to the distinctive genre of music that really caught on around the time of of Thomas Dorsey(1930s) that involves a particular "loose" approach to sanctified singing and accompaniment. This approach borrows much from the greater blues esthetic, but emphasizes other elements as well. This type of sanctified singing in the blues was not widely accepted until the 1950s. By the 1960s, gospel had changed the blues itself.

By this definition, some of the early jubilee quartet singing cited above would not be classified as "gospel." Nor would pure "straight" singing of spirituals or hymns that goes back centuries to the time of slavery.

The roots of gospel in this sense, as popularized by Dorsey with Sallie Martin, Mother Smith et al, and then incorporated into quartet singing in the 30s by groups such as the Soul Stirrers and Blue Jay Singers, are most clearly audible in the 1920s recordings of the singing preachers and santified church singers like Arizona Dranes. Before recordings, the history is more fuzzy. But it is clear that the religious camp revivial meetings in the South provided an important context for the development of gospel-type sanctified singing, as did the services of the Holliness Church and the Church of God in Christ around the turn of the century.

Muddy

Do you musically compelling or emotionally compelling? I would have to say many of the hymns written 100, 200, 300, and +500 years ago are quite musically compelling. Many have deep emotional depth. It is also rare to hear the same 'joy' in those pieces as you might hear in a gospel style hymn.

I am constantly on our organist and choir director to stop playing & singing hymns like "Amazing Grace" with the tempo of a dirge. How about a bit of lift & joy in that hymn. :)

Do you musically compelling or emotionally compelling? I would have to say many of the hymns written 100, 200, 300, and +500 years ago are quite musically compelling. Many have deep emotional depth. It is also rare to hear the same 'joy' in those pieces as you might hear in a gospel style hymn.

I am constantly on our organist and choir director to stop playing & singing hymns like "Amazing Grace" with the tempo of a dirge. How about a bit of lift & joy in that hymn. :)

Yes, many hymns are quite beautiful and powerful in their own right. I understand very well what Harmonica Mitch has in mind, however. He is wondering about the transition from "straight" singing of hymns to the sanctified gospel-type delivery.
That story is very much tied to the emergence of the Holliness Church in the late 19th century. It is interesting that, to this very day, the majority of black American churches do not feature sanctified singing. The hymns are sung straight. The Holliness Church was a sect that encouraged making music with complete abandon, bluesing up the music, bringing instruments into churches, mysticism, talking in tongues, reaching a state of emotional frenzy, "falling out," etc. This (and gospel) was initially very controversial and condemned by most churches in the US.

Muddy

hollowbody, it was his SECOND post which missed the point, not the first - re-read my response -

and I did offer corrective comments - not just the advice to read a book - however, that would certainly help as there is a fair amount of good literature on the subject -

and to say "the 'simple answer'... is perfectly fine in response to Mitchs questions" is not really fair, especially when the simple answer is very inaccurate -

personally I accept the definition of "gospel" as referring to the secular or vernacular singing of religious songs - which goes back to the earliest recordings we have, jubilee-style or not, and into the 19th century. I don't see any reason to see it as a later phenomenon when such singing was so clearly an active musical force as early as (and really earlier than) the 1920s - I mean, listen to the Biddiville Quartet singing deeply religious songs in 1928, and there is no doubt that these are gospel performances - and hear Cousins and Demoss, in 1897, singing Poor Mourner, and there is no doubt that it is a gospel performance.

and I will reiterate Spottswood's descriptions of "gospel songs written for the minstrel stage" - clearly evidence that this was a musical movement that started well before Thomas Dorsey.

here is a little bit from an essay by Kit Lornell, whom I consider to be one of the best scholars of American music: (italics and bolding are mine):

"Despite its immense popularity, widespread appeal, and influence on American popular music, Afro-American gospel music is a comparably recent music phenomenon. Rooted in the religious songs of the late 19th century urban revival, in shape-note songs, spirituals, blues, and ragtime, gospel emerged early in the 20th century.

The term gospel music suggests many things to different people. In its most general application, the word simply refers to any religious music, regardless of the music's age or origin. Congregational songs, ring shouts, quartets, sacred harp choirs, sanctified groups, and even some work songs would all qualify. Less broadly, the term gospel refers to an innovative, popular style of music combining secular forms, particularly ragtime and blues, with religious texts.

Composed, modern black gospel music became an important style during the 1930s. Thomas A. Dorsey is generally regarded as its "father," although it could be argued that C.A. Tindley should wear that mantle. Tindley was actively composing during the first decade of the 20th century,but his songs did not gain widespread popularity among black until the 1920s and 1930s. Dorsey himself was inspired by Tindley's reworkings of older revival songs, blues, and spirituals. Dorsey's own songs, however, made up the first wave of modern gospel music during the Depression."

Harmonica Mitch's initial question about the relationship between gospel and the blues is fascinating. They had similar roots, were two sides of the same coin, yet evolved for many years along somewhat separate paths, weaving in and out of each other.

It is interesting, for example, that when Mahalia Jackson began to sing in her sanctified manner in the 1930s, she was accused of bringing the devil's music (the blues) into the holy realm. Indeed, Mahalia herself admitted to being heavily influenced by Bessie Smith. That type of bluesy sanctified singing became the norm in gospel music, developing further in the 1940s and 1950s. But when Ray Charles adopted that style for secular music, HE was then criticized and accused of bringing God's music into the devil's workshop (the blues). I recall a quote by Big Bill Broonzy on Ray Charles in the 1950s: "he's singing sanctified. That's not right."

Then the sanctified approach strongly penetrated jazz, R&B and the blues in the late 1950s and 1960s, creating "soul." By the 1970s, the primary influence was again reversed, with R&B hits being used as new gospel songs with changed lyrics.

It is all very fascinating to me. In general, the histories of the blues and gospel cannot really be understood in isolation from each other.

Muddy

More I listen to blues, soul, jazz and gospel, more I understand that, John.
Even zydeco, that really started when Cajuns French music and Creoles jurés kind of bumped into each other, but then blues, soul, funk and now rap and hip hop elements were added to it, making zydeco another sibling in this great musical family.

well, the blues and gospel are related, or more accurately, they have common ancestry, but I do think they can be understood independently, as two very separate forces and traditions - I think it's a bit of a mistake to lump everything together - even if there is a basic continuum in African American and American music, the origins of things show how separate many of the different styles became.

Siblings with an individual life each, then. ;)